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Using staples for glue-up?
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=46648		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Using staples for glue-up?
Saw a video of a Chinese luthier making a classical and he used a couple of staples cut off close to the wood to stop a head plate slipping when gluing up.
I've just been gluing up a couple of necks and used this "tip" (in the waste areas) to stop the head joint and the neck blocks from slipping.
Worked great, and was much easier than the methods I remember from the Cumpiano and Courtnall books.
Anyone else ever tried this?
Just I've never heard of this before.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
I've been doing the exact same thing, keeps things from sliding around on wet glue and it works well. You just have to give a thought or two to where you do it because it can't be for anything serviceable (possibly needing to come off in time) or in the way of any future tool use.

IIRC I got the idea from Frank Finnichio (spelling error with no disrespect intended...) and his excellent building DVD set from back in the day. Frank before going out on his own was a manufacturing engineer for Martin so it would not surprise me if this staple thing is also a Martin thing.
Author:  ernie [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
I was just doing this glue up today tnx colin I will try it on the heel blocks . JSB gtrs uses 1/8in dowels in the slot for his Headstock veneers on CL gtrs or on SS the holes can be located thru the tuning holes . I also use an uber thin pin nailer from HF the pins are copper and easily routed away
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
I do this and thought that I got the tip from Cumpiano but maybe I picked it up somewhere else. . . Great idea to use it for aligning the blocks! I'll have to remember that.
Author:  kencierp [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
For this and other applications where the glue an excellent lubricant -- I use a couple of drops of CA on the edges and spritz it with accelerator -- makes a great clamp.
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
This is how blind nails work in carpentry and is nothing new really. I used this same trick to hold drawer fronts in place when I installed my kitchen cabinets. I once ran into a retired carpenter that made his own blind nails by cutting off the heads of brads, so the trick is at least 50 years old, probably lots older.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
kencierp wrote:
For this and other applications where the glue an excellent lubricant -- I use a couple of drops of CA on the edges and spritz it with accelerator -- makes a great clamp.


[:Y:] I do that with heel caps. Works great!
Author:  John Arnold [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
I use 1/2" long brads. I use them to position tops, backs, bridges, fingerboards, and headstock veneers. I always pull them out after the glue sets. Rubbing wax on the brads makes them come out easier.
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
I use 16 gauge brass finishing nails, they are a skosh over 1/16" so I drill a 1/16 hole and use the nail. I do this for headstock plates and fretboards.


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Author:  Jim Watts [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
I use a couple of small drill bits in the waste areas. Drill the hole, wax the shank of the bit and insert the shank into the hole. Pull em out after everything's dry. I do my bridges this way too, drilling through the saddle slot. I use the smallest drill bit I can hold.
Author:  Colin North [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
Yup, there's lots of ways to skin a cat.
I've tried most of those mentioned, bamboo skewers in waste areas, etc.,
Just liked the staples, they were so quick and un-fiddly for this type of job.
Author:  guitarjtb [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
I have not used brads or staples.

The 1/16" diameter side dot marker sticks from Stew Mac make great indexing pins. I drill where 2 of the tuner holes go on the peg head veneer, and the plastic locator pin gets drilled away when the tuner holes are drilled.

I drill in 2 of the fret slots in the fret board, and the plastic locator pin is removed with one stroke of the fret saw.

For bridges, I usually glue a 1/8" long piece of dowel in the 2 outer pin holes. Then, I drill thru the dowel and the top with a 1/16" bit and use the plastic stick as an indexing pin. The little short piece of dowel and the plastic locating pins are easily drilled away when you drill out the tuner holes through the top.

For tops and backs, I leave the drill bit as the locating pin and then back it out with the drill when the glue dries. I usually glue 3 little 1/2" square block on the outside of the body to drill into. I leave the top or back sticking out over the little block, and drill my locator pin into that. I back the bit out when the glue is dry, and remove the little blocks from the sides. I only need 3 because I drill one locator pin into the top at the neck block. This one gets covered by the fret board extension. I use bits for the top and back because I leave the pins in place, while I am locating and notching the sides for the ends of the braces. This involves removing the top and back a few times while I fit it properly. The locator pins help the top or back return to the same place each time.

Backing the bits out is very easy with my Dewalt cordless drill. I just adjust the chuck so that the drill bit will just barely slip in. I hold the chuck and pull the trigger to tighten it and it spins right out. I have not broken a bit yet doing it this way.
Author:  wbergman [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
The pins, etc. are not a panacea. First fingerboard I glued I put two drill bits flipped over as pins through fret slots. I used C-clamps to clamp. The torque still pushed the board sideways hard enough to deform the holes and the board went on crooked.
Author:  DannyV [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
wbergman wrote:
The pins, etc. are not a panacea. First fingerboard I glued I put two drill bits flipped over as pins through fret slots. I used C-clamps to clamp. The torque still pushed the board sideways hard enough to deform the holes and the board went on crooked.

What do you use now? I've always used this method and never noticed any movement .
Author:  Colin North [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
James Burkett wrote:
..........
For tops and backs, I leave the drill bit as the locating pin and then back it out with the drill when the glue dries. I usually glue 3 little 1/2" square block on the outside of the body to drill into. I leave the top or back sticking out over the little block, and drill my locator pin into that. .........

I've started using a similar thing, using HHG for the blocks and bits of bamboo skewer instead of the bits.
Just chisel them off when finished and wipe with hot water.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
I remember the original StewMac Kit video in the 90's showed the nipped off staple trick. I think it was for fretboards.

I go through a lot of 1.4mm brads, they are just a few thousands smaller than a 1/16" drill bit. As mentioned by previous posters I use them for the bridge (saddle slot), headstock veneer, and top.

I have a jig that keys off the truss rod slot for drilling 1/8" holes in the neck and fretboard for wooden dowels and usually glue the dowels into the neck so they can't wiggle but even with that I have seen slight movement with clamp up so I watch the centerline marks closely.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
For aligning the fretboard, I tack glue little blocks to the neck blank such that the fretboard wedges its taper into position when clamped. The blocks get carved away when the neck is shaped. Obviously this won't work with a pre-shaped neck. I like dong it this way because I clap the fertbaord/neck upside down to my bench top and leave it clamped flat until all the moisture has equalized.
Author:  Colin North [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
+1
I think I picked that up from Waddy, the small blocks, and that piece of bench top is reserved for that.
Author:  wbergman [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
I have done this again but I put the screw side of the clamp against the back of the neck and I turned the clamp very gradually and let the glue ooze out and the wood grab before I continued tightening. I think the main problem my first time was too much glue and too quick turning down the clamp. I leave the neck full width before the board is glued on, and then trim the neck after. In this case, I sometimes put the board on dry with some saran wrap in a couple of places. I then glue guide blocks onto the part of the neck blank that will be trimmed later, with the saran wrap preventing glue from running under the board. (The guide blocks will disappear when trimming to the final dimensions.) Then I remove the board so that I can remove the saran wrap. Finally, I glue the board on and the guide blocks hold it in place sideways. You still need to be careful and maybe use pins to prevent slip the long way.

For preshaped necks, some people use band clamps.
Author:  Shaw [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
I guess this is a variation of using small headless brads. I'll have to try this. Sounds easier.

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Author:  Alex Kleon [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using staples for glue-up?
Rubbing the glue joint, will help the two parts hold together with less slipping. Set the clamp faces square to the surfaces, and start with light clamp pressure, gradually tightening them.
I've been using the 23g pinless nails for alignment for years for cabinetry.

Alex
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